Legislature(2003 - 2004)
05/03/2004 03:45 PM Senate RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
CSHB 319(FIN)-REC.CABIN SITES/ LOTTERY SALE/RTS. RESERV
CHAIR OGAN announced CSHB 319(FIN) to be up for consideration.
REPRESENTATIVE HUGH FATE, sponsor, said the Department of
Natural Resources (DNR) has the responsibility of not allowing
the remote cabin site process to take place on lands that are
deemed by it to be of high mineral value. It's the first piece
of legislation that has been before this legislature that puts
public lands into private hands through other than the DNR land
disposal program.
SENATOR BEN STEVENS arrived at 4:02 p.m.
CHAIR OGAN said that some local governments are concerned about
survey and appraisal backlogs and the resulting extra workloads
on staff and asked how that could be solved.
MR. BOB LOEFFLER, Director, Division of Mining, Land and Water,
Department of Natural Resources (DNR), said that Mat-Su said it
already has a 3 - 12 month backlog and Fairbanks was similarly
concerned about how much longer individual processing of parcels
would take. The only way to eliminate the requirement for
individual processing is to batch process the applications,
which is what DNR's current program does. Individual processing
as outlined in subsection (f) could not be done within 24
months.
CHAIR OGAN asked if the individual parcel disposal section had a
best interest findings section.
MR. LOEFFLER replied yes. Under the current program one best
interest finding is done for every area, which consists of 30 -
60 parcels. Section (f) requires individual best interest
findings for each parcel. That is a significant change.
CHAIR OGAN noted the large fiscal note and asked if it was
reasonable.
MS. NANCY WELSH, Special Assistant to Commissioner Tom Irwin,
Department of Natural Resources (DNR), said the fiscal note is a
little optimistic. Costs could be decreased substantially by
changing the individual processing in section (4) to the
existing batch processing program, which would change the fiscal
note to roughly $69,000 versus $390,000 per year.
SENATOR ELTON arrived at 4:11 p.m.
CHAIR OGAN said a lot of people in the legislature are
frustrated with the fact that DNR has not made lands available
for disposal despite the fact that it has a lot of discretion
about what lands it could make available.
SENATOR SEEKINS said he supported the concept behind the bill.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE said this legislation makes the survey and
appraisal optional so that if the state does those activities,
it would collect the fees at a later date through the payment
program. The state uses batching programs, because all disposals
have been through a lottery system of a subdivision where lots
are right next to each other. He is not against keeping that
program provided that the state chooses to sell other lots
around a first application if it has more lots in the area it
would like to sell. The commissioner of DNR has the discretion
to allow an application to be certified or not. The public
process he has to go through will address whether and how public
property will be put into private hands. He thought this was a
fair way to get land into private hands.
SENATOR WAGONER asked what would keep him and his wife from
filing on two pieces of adjoining lake frontage property, paying
for it and then subdividing it into small lots.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE replied that nothing precludes that from
happening. That is the reason the parcels are as large as 10
acres.
SENATOR DYSON asked if nominated lands would go through the
public process with the local people of the area before it was
approved for disposal.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE replied that HB 319 allows the commissioner
the discretion of allocating the lands and he has a hearing
process.
SENATOR DYSON commented out of the blue that he thought it was
absolutely bizarre to mandate only one outhouse for every 10
acres.
SENATOR ELTON related a concern of some constituents that the
state is creating some impediments to future development.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE said he thought the commissioner would keep
those things in mind when he made his determinations.
SENATOR ELTON said once areas are selected, groups of property
owners are being created that will protest development that may
otherwise have happened.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE responded that would probably happen, but
DNR already has the final authority to authorize development in
those areas. If DNR does not want development to happen in a
certain area, it would not be opened up under this program.
SENATOR ELTON asked the sponsor to comment on the optimistic
fiscal note.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE replied that he didn't think it was that
optimistic; he thought the state would make much more money.
TAPE 04-47, SIDE B
REPRESENTATIVE FATE explained that DNR feels that the optimism
comes from the timeline and thinks that this program can be done
in 24 months rather than 36.
SENATOR DYSON remarked that there is nothing new here except
it's an alternative to the lottery that allows a private citizen
to nominate lands now.
CHAIR OGAN asked what criteria are used for the DNR to deny an
application.
MS. WELSH responded that answer would come out through the
public notice, the department's response to comment, plus what
DNR considers to be in the best interest of the state. There are
no criteria in the best interest finding.
CHAIR OGAN said he was trying to envision the unintended
consequences and was worried that eventually all the premium
land would be in private hands.
MS. WELSH related that is the department's concern also and
noted that it has a chance to review comments from residents of
the area, but the public notices are only as good as the people
who read them. The commissioner has routinely said he is
concerned about fairness to the public and tries to offer land
to Alaskans generally at the same time rather than to negotiate
with individuals.
MR. JIM POUND, staff to Representative Fate, said accesses to
waterways and riparian areas are included in the bill as
required by state law.
CHAIR OGAN said he was trying to figure out what some of his
friends would say about some camps they have used that are on
state land that suddenly become private property.
Guys who know about it are going to get a leg up over
the guys that don't know about it. All of that is
going to be gone. Nobody is going to have a place to
camp unless somewhere in the best interest finding the
commissioner is going to know about that. The director
is not going to have the local knowledge.... I think
it's going to be a huge problem.
MR. LOEFFLER said the commissioner doesn't think this process is
where the state should go.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE said the right of first refusal is deleted
from all the versions and language giving the commissioner
discretion over selling or leasing property is inserted to
address his concerns over fairness to all Alaskans.
CHAIR OGAN said he thought that essentially they were creating
an open mining entry type system for land selection and he was
very worried about the unintended consequences of this bill.
SENATOR SEEKINS said he thought the state is getting dangerously
close to the "no more" philosophy. He enjoys the solitude of his
particular location, but he is willing to share it with others.
He does not see the balance, however, in this approach.
SENATOR WAGONER said he understands what Representative Fate is
trying to do in making land available, but he suggested having
the state put up some lands that would work for this type of
program instead of opening everything up.
We're going to create a land rush and I don't think
that's necessarily what we want to do, but we want to
make lands available for people to have remote sites
and remote locations.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE responded that section (4) stipulates each
year subject to appropriations from the state land disposal
income the commissioner shall prepare a schedule of land
offerings.
SENATOR ELTON asked if anything would preclude a family of five
from going out and staking 50 acres.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE replied no, but the prime requisite is that
they all need to show citizenship. A child needs some sort of
parental guidance to make applications.
SENATOR SEEKINS repeated that he is afraid of the "no more"
attitude in state bureaucracy.
MR. MIKE MANNS, Fairbanks, supported HB 319 and said that the
private lands envisioned with this bill could provide an
economic base that this state really needs. He said Fairbanks is
surrounded by state lands, but the residents can't get them into
private ownership. He said, "Either we live in a country where
we have a right to private property or we live in some kind of a
socialist lock up...."
MR. MYRL THOMPSON, private property owner, said he is a land
developer, but doesn't support this bill because it benefits
speculators.
CHAIR OGAN said it would be held for further work. There being
no further business to come before the committee, he adjourned
the meeting at 5:08 p.m.
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